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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 11:22:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 01/09/2004 11:24:41
you can only apply logic to a certain degree to the pricing of goods.
A ferrari doesnt cost that much because its soo much better then a standard car. It costs that much because its exclusive, a status symbol and a limited product.
Compare it with the Imperial Apocs, the magnate frigs or any meta items.
A few month back a 1400mm proto gun went for 100 mil each gun. Simply because it was uberrare. Mineralprice of that gun? Prolly as much as a normal 1400er and still ppl bought it.
The assaultfrigs will always be a toy for the rich. Simply their combatvalue is still "frig" or "cruiser" level while its ultimate price is above construction costs of those. Their limited production possibility and their high bpo prices justify insane sell prices.
Its simply a matter of common sense that someone buying a bpo for 3 billion wants to relay the buyprice on his own customers buying the endproduct. Since you can only produce ~15-20 of the assaultfrigs per week you can do the math yourself how long it would take to get the bpo paid off if you just make 2 mil isk profit (and thats assuming you sell every single ship as soon as it gets out of the permanently running factory and that you have never any problems getting the materials on time)
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 11:22:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 01/09/2004 11:24:41
you can only apply logic to a certain degree to the pricing of goods.
A ferrari doesnt cost that much because its soo much better then a standard car. It costs that much because its exclusive, a status symbol and a limited product.
Compare it with the Imperial Apocs, the magnate frigs or any meta items.
A few month back a 1400mm proto gun went for 100 mil each gun. Simply because it was uberrare. Mineralprice of that gun? Prolly as much as a normal 1400er and still ppl bought it.
The assaultfrigs will always be a toy for the rich. Simply their combatvalue is still "frig" or "cruiser" level while its ultimate price is above construction costs of those. Their limited production possibility and their high bpo prices justify insane sell prices.
Its simply a matter of common sense that someone buying a bpo for 3 billion wants to relay the buyprice on his own customers buying the endproduct. Since you can only produce ~15-20 of the assaultfrigs per week you can do the math yourself how long it would take to get the bpo paid off if you just make 2 mil isk profit (and thats assuming you sell every single ship as soon as it gets out of the permanently running factory and that you have never any problems getting the materials on time)
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 11:45:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: JP Beauregard
Why do I keep thinking that manufacturers could price much more sensibly if they were sufficiently committed to their customers to offer BYOC deals?
I know, it involves actually talking to people, but really, it's NOT THAT HARD.
Thanks for the component list!
Byoc sounds good, so whats the ration 2 sets for 1 ship ?
Costprice about 16-17 mil total (taking the values from above).
Wouldnt change much but prolly take much longer to pay back the 3-4 billion isk you invested first hand as you can only produce 2-3 assault frigs per day anyways, so all the components in the world wont change the output of your factories.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 11:45:00 -
[4]
Originally by: JP Beauregard
Why do I keep thinking that manufacturers could price much more sensibly if they were sufficiently committed to their customers to offer BYOC deals?
I know, it involves actually talking to people, but really, it's NOT THAT HARD.
Thanks for the component list!
Byoc sounds good, so whats the ration 2 sets for 1 ship ?
Costprice about 16-17 mil total (taking the values from above).
Wouldnt change much but prolly take much longer to pay back the 3-4 billion isk you invested first hand as you can only produce 2-3 assault frigs per day anyways, so all the components in the world wont change the output of your factories.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 11:54:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 01/09/2004 11:57:57
Originally by: Malius
Thanks, its nice to see the actual list to show how much the various corporations are ripping people off (I've seen these things quoted at 23 million in one of the latest posts.. nice markup). Build time is meaningless btw, because you can do other stuff to generate income while something is building.
Thats when ignorance hurts.
Lets assume you produce 3 per day at a profit of 14 mil each and you sell all. Thats 42 mil isk a day (if you dont research the bpo, noone drops your price, you sell out all ships every day of the week for every week of the month). The result would be without any price changes in components about 1.26 billion isk a month. If the initial bpo finder sells it to you for roughly 3.6-4 billion isk it will take -3- month before you got your money back and create actual profit. Even with such high prices. If you make only 5 mil profit (1/3rd) you would roughly need -9- month with constant high sellout and stable prodcosts to make this bpo worthwhile.
When talking of ship bpos the construction time is the decisive factor. The construction time limits the maximum amount of sold ships and hence the maximum amount of produced profit. If you compare it to a normal t2 item, buildtime 1h profit per item about 1.5-2 mil isk that would result in the same assumed sellout (which is for modules more likely) in a profit of 36-48 mil isk per day. Far bigger chance for profit.
Especially since noone moans about a rcu II costing 3 mil or a pdu II costing 4 etc.
The initial poster spoke of "doing other things while producing", you also need to sell those babies and to spend some time getting components etc.
Its a simple matter of fact if the bpo prices are so high, the producers will increase the item/ship prices to get their money back. Noone produces out of charity for others and invests his money without having a chance to ever see it back.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 11:54:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 01/09/2004 11:57:57
Originally by: Malius
Thanks, its nice to see the actual list to show how much the various corporations are ripping people off (I've seen these things quoted at 23 million in one of the latest posts.. nice markup). Build time is meaningless btw, because you can do other stuff to generate income while something is building.
Thats when ignorance hurts.
Lets assume you produce 3 per day at a profit of 14 mil each and you sell all. Thats 42 mil isk a day (if you dont research the bpo, noone drops your price, you sell out all ships every day of the week for every week of the month). The result would be without any price changes in components about 1.26 billion isk a month. If the initial bpo finder sells it to you for roughly 3.6-4 billion isk it will take -3- month before you got your money back and create actual profit. Even with such high prices. If you make only 5 mil profit (1/3rd) you would roughly need -9- month with constant high sellout and stable prodcosts to make this bpo worthwhile.
When talking of ship bpos the construction time is the decisive factor. The construction time limits the maximum amount of sold ships and hence the maximum amount of produced profit. If you compare it to a normal t2 item, buildtime 1h profit per item about 1.5-2 mil isk that would result in the same assumed sellout (which is for modules more likely) in a profit of 36-48 mil isk per day. Far bigger chance for profit.
Especially since noone moans about a rcu II costing 3 mil or a pdu II costing 4 etc.
The initial poster spoke of "doing other things while producing", you also need to sell those babies and to spend some time getting components etc.
Its a simple matter of fact if the bpo prices are so high, the producers will increase the item/ship prices to get their money back. Noone produces out of charity for others and invests his money without having a chance to ever see it back.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 12:14:00 -
[7]
i dont think any buyer wants to buy the bpo for 3 billion isk, just other competitors are also on the bidding and the person selling also has a word in the price. he still can refuse to sell.....
3-4 billion is average for covops and ass frigs, while 500-1 billion was average for interceptors.
Thats nothing i like but something i have to accept, especially since there is only a limited amount of bpos given out. So if you -want- to produce them you must pay the price.
Naturally if you -want- to produce them you also -want- to make profit from it.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 12:14:00 -
[8]
i dont think any buyer wants to buy the bpo for 3 billion isk, just other competitors are also on the bidding and the person selling also has a word in the price. he still can refuse to sell.....
3-4 billion is average for covops and ass frigs, while 500-1 billion was average for interceptors.
Thats nothing i like but something i have to accept, especially since there is only a limited amount of bpos given out. So if you -want- to produce them you must pay the price.
Naturally if you -want- to produce them you also -want- to make profit from it.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 12:19:00 -
[9]
and who will produce the ships for you ?
The bpo finder auctions its bpo, so the price will raise and ofc the final buyer wants to get his money back, no greed in that.
Understandable aswell for the guy selling it that he wants to get the best for his bpo.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 12:19:00 -
[10]
and who will produce the ships for you ?
The bpo finder auctions its bpo, so the price will raise and ofc the final buyer wants to get his money back, no greed in that.
Understandable aswell for the guy selling it that he wants to get the best for his bpo.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 13:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Thomas Covenant
3 Month return on investment of that magnitude? and just for you ignorance scale - people expect to pay financing cost alone on an investment of this magnitude for an extended period of time, or the assest value alone gained by that producer in 3 month would be staggering...
go to business school m8 
If you had read carefully you would find out that 3 month is at full sellout and constant high prices. Both very unlikely. According to my own book only Taranis and Crow interceptors so far managed that.
In the 2nd part of your reply you talk about "asset value". The asset value is most likely to drop in price. The bpo will lose value once more are dished out and once the price of the ships drop (due to more items on the market, superior ships getting out, and profitchances for the products generally dropping).
To back my claims up ill give you a perfect example for that. The miner2 bpo.
When it was first out you could sell miner2s for 5 mil each while they now, after like 10 month, go for 80-100k. Quiet a drop.
Back in the days ppl wanted to buy the bpo for 3+ bil (considering they could make the money back easily), how much you think the asset is worth now (assuming you bought it for 3 billions back then)?
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.09.01 13:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Thomas Covenant
3 Month return on investment of that magnitude? and just for you ignorance scale - people expect to pay financing cost alone on an investment of this magnitude for an extended period of time, or the assest value alone gained by that producer in 3 month would be staggering...
go to business school m8
If you had read carefully you would find out that 3 month is at full sellout and constant high prices. Both very unlikely. According to my own book only Taranis and Crow interceptors so far managed that.
In the 2nd part of your reply you talk about "asset value". The asset value is most likely to drop in price. The bpo will lose value once more are dished out and once the price of the ships drop (due to more items on the market, superior ships getting out, and profitchances for the products generally dropping).
To back my claims up ill give you a perfect example for that. The miner2 bpo.
When it was first out you could sell miner2s for 5 mil each while they now, after like 10 month, go for 80-100k. Quiet a drop.
Back in the days ppl wanted to buy the bpo for 3+ bil (considering they could make the money back easily), how much you think the asset is worth now (assuming you bought it for 3 billions back then)?
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